I was really disappointed with the 4th edition. D&D 4th edition (dnd4) is the Microsoft Vista of the Role Playing Game world. I have been playing D&D and bought D&D products for close to 30 years. When they went from 2nd edition to 3rd edition. I thought that Wizards of The Coast (WoTC) did a great job in fixing a many of the problems in the game mechanics. You immediately felt like it was well thought out an well balanced. It didn’t take very much to convert to and come to love the new version. They did a great job of capturing the feel of the game but with a modified rule set. As soon as I got it, I couldn’t wait to use them. 3.5 was he best thing that ever happened to D&D.
I was excited for the 4.0 version because I expected them to continue to improve on the mechanics and streamline to the systems, especially those for combat and magic. The jump from 3.5 to 4.0 instead resulted in major foundational changes to the game. In this case, not just the rules but the actual feel of the game as well. No doubt 3.5 had some good features which needed improvement (two-weapon fighting, sorcerer class, etc.) but the basic system worked well and stayed true to the original. I compare dnd4 to Microsoft Vista because like vista it seems more cumbersome and complex than the original. Like Vista, dnd4 makes you want the publisher to pull it from the shelves and go back and work on it for another year or two before releasing it again.
I agree some other reviews that I’ve read which compare the new system to that of a Massively-Multiplayer Online (MMO) video game. I like playing MMOs. When I play an MMO, my focus is more on the mechanics and less on roleplaying. When I want to play an RPG, I’m far more interested in the interactions than the mechanics. In some cases it seems like they changed things for just for the sake of changing them. I think WoTC’s intention was to try to appeal to a younger audience. One that grew up playing MMOs. The danger in this, is that you run the risk of alienating your core audience. Which is what I’m afraid WoTC may have done.
There were a number of systems that worked very well in 3.5 that went out with the bathwater. The new systems seems overly complicated rather than simplified. One of my favorite parts about the 3/3.5 systems was the increased flexibility in customizing your character. 4.0 seems to reduce your options while increasing the complexity. I think that the new races and classes should have been saved for particular campaign settings or supplements (e.g. artificer and warforged in Eberron). They also need to consider backwards compatibility. Even if I wanted to move my campaign to dnd4 what am I supposed to do with the gnomish sorcerers? (Both gnomes and sorcerers were removed from the game) There does seem to be some good ideas like ritual magic but I think this should have been a modification to the existing system rather than a complete rebuild. The treasure system is better but limited in choices. I also like the idea of quest rewards.
Unlike 3.0/3.5, I’m in no rush to start using the new version or replacing any more of my extensive collection of expensive 3.0/3.5 manuals. I expect to be playing 3.5 for a long time to come. Now I’m looking forward to D&D 5th edition when they can fix all the things they screwed up in the 4th edition.
Friends Don’t Let Friends Play D&D 4E
Updates:
- This is another good review of D&D 4E that I found.
- Sign the Online Petition to get WoTC to continue to support D&D 3.5E.
Posted on: Friday, June 6, 2008
June 24th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
I totally agree. I just cant shake the feeling, that every class now has spells. Part of encouraging roleplaying is to encourage some scope of realism (or to set up fantastic realism), and part of doing this is to have the classes be unique unto their own. Even if they are unbalanced, they did it the right way (even if accidental). Wizards started out as clumsy fools with a few spells, but grew to mighty archmages. Whereas a fighter seemed very specialized from the get go, but didnt have the power curve of the wizard.
I think this new edition failed horribly. It concentrates too much on combat now, as can be seen by a greatly reduced skill list and lack of extra-combat abilities.
August 6th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
I would have named the article
4th Edition = Critical Failure!
but otherwise I totally agree with the reviewer.
Removing the flexibility of the magical system is a HUGE no-no, battles are actually more complex (my first short adventure in the 3rd edition took me 4 hours to complete, while my first “encounter” in the 4th edition took me 6 Hours!!), and I really hate the “you are hit, and you get shifted/slided/whatever 3 squares” crap.
Not to mention that from RPG now the games feels just like a complex strategy game with no RPing whatsoever.
August 9th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
ROLERPLAY OR GAME MECHANICS. Can’t have both
Hello. Well I*m an old roleplayer of most kind of games. I’m a great fan of fantasy and thereby the D&D. Game mechanics and there function is something I can see clear through all my years of gaming and changing games to fit better for us players. So when the 4Edition was released I read through the rules and I loved them. The system was kind of flawless. It was beautifull, theoretically. Now we started to play and some major hangups came over us. THere seems to be something strange that makes it harder for us to roleplay. The battlegrid for an example with the very predetailed enviroments takes away the innen picture in every player of the room and that steals the feeling. Thats a no no. But we can’t just simply remove the battlegrid and play flying like in D&D 2Edition or in other rolegames, because the battle system wont allow us. It would interfier too much with the system itself. Its simply to much importance to know where I can “Shift” or on what square I cast my fireball so I might include as many orcs as possible. Its a meta gaming thinking where you want to max up the effects / dmg. When you do that it takes away room for the experience as a roleplaying event and the story grows thinn quickly. D&D 4Edition is more of a wargame than a roleplaying game and that makes me sick. All in my playinggroup is quite experienced too from many years of playing but we don’t know how to make 4Edition playable. Thereby I want to admit that the rules in 4Edition is very nice and smooth. Much easier than in 3.5 though you need the battlegrid and there is the dilemma. So the question comes down to this, do you want a roleplaying game or a wargame. 4Edition is not a good roleplaying game, its very hard to roleplay in battles atleast, but the system in the battles are very nice. So D&D 4E might be a roleplaying game for beginners maybe. I just cant hold back the tear when I say it. Our next attemt will be to use a simple nacked battlegrid and through out the preprinted maps that comes with the adventurers and just skiss up VERY simple the area and see if that leaves more room for the “inner picture” in each players head to be more forced for an imagination instead of looking down at that 2dimnensional battlegrid and replace your really cool inner picture of the situation with the battleboard and belives thats how it looks. Frustrated GM, I dont know what to do. If here is anyone out here who have experienced my problems and have found solutions for em I would gladly recive them here.
August 11th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
I was up and down about D&D 4e. I heard things I liked before it was released then things I really disliked. Then I decided to give it a try. The worst thing that could happen is I dislike it. Well after playing up until a week ago. I can say
“Thank you Wizards of the Coast for D&D 4e, Because now I can save my money for other things”
My group and I believe that Gary Gygax passed away not because of health issues. He died because they presented him D&D 4e just after its first print run. This is what he believe could(Did) have happened.
WotC: Gary check out the new D&D 4e.
Gary: Grabs the book and thumbs a few pages.
Gary: WTF?!?!?! Magic Missile can miss? WTF!!!
WotC: Game Balanc..
Gary:(Cutting them off) Grabbing his chest gripping his heart tightly and screaming “My legacy!!!” Then he hit the floor and passed away.
October 23rd, 2008 at 11:45 pm
I totally agree. Editions 1 and 2 were great, editions 3 and 3.5 were awesome. The 4th edition, well… lets just call it a big step backwards (unless you like playing pokemon instead of D&D). I returned mine to the book store.
November 21st, 2008 at 8:29 am
The last sentence of the first paragraph is in error. Gygax was the best thing to happen to D&D.
My $0.02.
December 17th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
One week after buying the box set of 4th Ed. I sold it for 40$ just to get that blasphemous edition out of my presence! I mean really messing up my mages come on!
December 19th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
One of my gaming troupes was really looking forward to it, even after buying the books and reading we we’re stoked. Yet after only a few sessions, we’ve called it off and started on Pathfinder. Here’s my collection of what’s good and bad.
Good:
-the damage and healing no longer has players drawing straws to be a cleric. In addition, the cleric no longer needs to be bogged down as the medic.
-having set hit points instead of rolling
-powers for other classes keeps wizards and clerics from being the main power source later in the game
-more simplified alignment system without so much game play affect
Bad:
-having the select powers also bogs down combat when you have both PCs and NPCs using different powers
-very little room for customization and classes seem to rigid
-too much emphasis on combat roles in the party which pigeon holes characters. Once again, fighters are the meat shields and nothing more.
In the end, I do like some of the new rules but those we can translate well into any existing 3.5 game or Pathfinder for that matter. Yet the new flaws just outweigh the new solutions.
March 11th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
failure its your site =D
4th edition rules in balance and gameplay, roleplay its about players not rules.. noobs -__-
March 17th, 2009 at 2:33 am
Hanariel, please go back to world of warcraft.
I agree with everything said here, everything seems horrible, terrible, and now with all of the player’s core rulebooks being so damn expensive, I feel completely doomed.
Maybe I can talk to my bookstore about ordering them, but I don’t know… I guess it’s worth a try. I’m not spending anywhere near $20 for a used player’s handbook with pages missing. No way in hell.
March 25th, 2009 at 12:13 am
Hanariel just defined my problems with 4e.
April 20th, 2009 at 9:16 am
4ed is just combat system. But we all can play combat on PC, or board wargame, the social gameplay WoTC kill, so I abandon the way of this company and her new system.
Now WoTC road is “The road to Hell”
May 13th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
There was no reason to release a 4th edition except to make money. The entire system is the brainchild of marketers and accountants. There is simply no reason to purchase this garbage. They don’t even want you reading the rules ahead of time because they know you won’t buy it. People who loved D&D invariably hate this edition. I’m glad I was able to see a friend’s (unwanted) copy of the PHB before even considering buying this absolute waste of money. Classes have been ruined, spells have been ruined, combat has been ruined. There is nothing about this system worth buying. If I had paid money for it, I would be demanding my money back. Not having spent any money on this, I can safely say I NEVER WILL. Utter failure, WoTC. Waste of paper, ink, and time. NO POINT TO THIS GARBAGE. I’m not even waiting for 5e. I will not be buying any more D&D products unless the entire franchise is acquired by “oldschool” gamers who know what D&D players like and want.
December 29th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
4th edition is the 1st real dnd. I say that because I haven’t had fun with any of the tedium of previous editions.
Let’s be serious now: you all hate the 4th edition because of an unreasonable, emotional issue you have. One that I cannot explain because it is profoundly illogical.
February 10th, 2010 at 11:34 am
I just wanted to make a statement that I disagree with this article. While we’re all entitled to our opinions, I personally enjoy the direction WoTC has taken Dungeons & Dragons.
February 12th, 2010 at 6:09 pm
Dave,
My guess is that you are under 23 and have been inundated with WoW and Collectable Card Games. And I don’t mean that as an insult. Because if so, you’re the target audience for this tragedy. But for those of us 40-somethings who have been playing since third grade, its just painful, pure and simple. As you say everyone is entitled to their opinion. But even you have to admit it would have been nice if they had included a way to migrate to the new system instead of just having to throw everything old out.
March 24th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
I was first introduced to D&D when 3.5 came out. I loved it. Sure the system wasn’t perfect, but at times it was those very imperfections which granted it a certain mutability that made it perfect, because the DM would be able to adjucate what happens in certain situations. Multi-classing was fun, as it allowed your character to develop in unique ways. One of my memorable characters was a sorceror who worshipped Tiamat. After going around converting people for some months, I decided to start taking levels in Cleric. Over time, the sorceror abilities were used less and less and fell by the wayside.
Can something like that happen in 4th edition? No. At best you can take a feat to get some cleric powers, and that’s it.
I’ve played Neverwinter Nights, World of Warcraft, D&D Online, and many pen and paper roleplaying systems. 4th Edition reminds me of WoW with cooldowns (1/encounter abilities, 1/day, at-will), self-healing abilities, and everyone having similar levels of power. The battlemap reliance is also an insult, as I never used any sort of grid or miniatures until I had been playing D&D for almost 8 months.
Some people praise the new skill system, but I disagree. Sure, in my rogue’s youth he developed a strong skill at picking locks. But he hasn’t picked a lock in years, I’m a higher level….and a better lockpicker? Skillpoints were a way of determining what skills your character was actively using, a way to measure what they did. If you’re a fighter who’s adventuring with a wizard, and asking him questions and such about magic, then it makes sense if you take a few ranks in Knowledge (Arcana). Then when you make the skillcheck, you’ll only be able to make the easy checks, stuff that was likely to have come up in the various conversations.
Admittedly there were a few things in 3.5e that could be a little complex at times (grappling), but for the most part it wasn’t too difficult or simple to understand and enjoy. The rules were flexible enough that you could do crazy things not explicitly listed.
I for one will be staying with 3.5, and Pathfinder. For all those who enjoy 4th edition, have fun with it. Just don’t expect me to join you anytime soon.
November 9th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Well gentle Lords & Ladies, let me lament now, and lend me your squires cape to wipe my tears.
I started playing at the age of 8 with the lil red box for lvls 1-3. We played through all those colored boxes, then 1st edition advanced. I started DM’ing in 2nd edition advanced and developed with the game as it grew unwieldly in that edition.
I was what I consider an excellent DM when 3rd was released, and i had hopes for its greatness and healthy scepticism, but lo and behold it was from a DM’s view the best edition ever. EVAR.
3e was a true legos set of rules, world building and off the cuff adjudication had never been so easy. but of course these were tools, it was up to the DM to use the right ones at the right time.
I noticed too soon the new blood began having problems with 3e in their games, which baffled me, and these all shared a common thread: Those troubled groups lacked a dungeon master.
Oh they had someone DM’ing, but they were approaching the game as if all rules in all books were mandatory or HAD to be used. There seemed to be a lack of a willingness to world build or customize, which is the true shining point of 3e.
there were “DMs” out there who would allow munchkin players to play celestial vampiric half dragon half gnome barbarians dual wielding wands of petrification and shatter…and NOT because thats what they wanted, or that was setting appropriate, but because the books made it an option. A legion of visionless DM’s who never learned to say “No, Jackhole, our campaign is Arhturian fantasy, or hyborian fantasy, not freakin Narruto, so you can’t play super gnome”.
You had DM’s incapable of saying “I dont care how they misprinted the wording of polymorph, anything you turn into will have stats and powers equivalent to yer character level”.
You had DM’s incapable of saying “no you cannot use astral projection to go from the material plane to the material plane and thus adventure as a clone of yourself without danger of dying”.
Here practice it with me, “No you can’t carry 5 million slings because the book says their weight is zero”.
And again “No there is not a wall of iron money making exploit because after the first 12 idjits did it, basic economics caused the price of iron to devalue to the point were the spell costs more than the final product…but feel free to waste your gold”.
And the problems arising from this simple inability to world build, adjudicate, and say no when needful led to cries of brokeness or imbalance. Which gave “Them” all the excuse they needed to spawn 4th edition.
Now look at fourth edition….go on, really look at it.
Thats not D&D thats heroquest advanced.
Now, I’m a gamer, I’ve played everything from battletech to starfleet battles to white wolf games to starwars (west end editions, the REAL starwars game) to deadlands to rifts, you name it i’ve probably played it at least once or ran it.
You know what my group are currently playing?
A system that requires 3e core books at a minimum but replaces d20+modifier with a dice purchasing skill based system similar to the old starwars game, and changes advancement to the spending of xp to increase skills, feats, abilities, or levels (which as per the core books limits max skill ranks).
Its the fastest combat you’ve ever seen, the fastest character creation for that matter, and players love spending their skill and ability points each round to buy dice to do whatever. They also love spending xp to increase things rather than just accumalating the points.
And best of all, even with having attacks and skill checks changed to another mechanic, its still D & D, there are still classes and levels and races and familiar spells and situational modifiers, and it is not a glorified table top miniature battles game with window dressing like 4e is. Even with this core and profound mechanical change its still 3rd edition D&D, virtually unrecognizable as anything but.
So with regard to 4th edition, I’m leaning toward saying that maybe what makes it “not D&D” is perhaps not even a change in rules mechanics since our own experience with our “3e myth edition” (which started as a drunken experemint after a game of west end starwars where players ended up marooned on a primitive iron age planet) drastically changes the core mechanics of attacks, damage, movement, and skills and yet any fool watching labels it D&D without question.
Maybe what makes 4th edition “not D&D” is something ephemeral, something to do with the perception of how the flow of an adventure should evolve.
I cannot really put my finger on it, merely point out things that maybe cumuatively lead to the reason for it not being D&D.
Right from the start, with character creation, it doesnt feel like D&D. It feels like selecting your “toon” in the Guantlet video game series (white knight needs food now!).
The “herding” of players into a cohesive team with roles also feels offputting, it was always up to the players how their characters did this before, if at all, and their effectivness at such was impacted but not entirely negated by character creation. Now….uhg…I mean just referring to character creation as “builds” really really really really really REALLY makes me want to forcefeed the player the wrath of the lich king install discs, preferrabbly rectally.
The world building tools are non-existant or lazily done to my eye, the entirety of published products just seems to be a combat system….thats it, combat system with flavor text. It also feels like 4e doesnt really “need” the DM at all, its like he’s an after thought, you could probably write a simple program to take over the dm’s job in 4e and it would still play the same.
It feels more like yer playing a version of final fantasy on the old SNES than it does D&D. There is so much from any edition of D&D you can change, even drastically, and it still feels like D&D. With 4th edition you’d have to drastically changes things to make it start to feel like D&D. I’m not sure how to articulate what is wrong or missing.
Something, somewhere, has certainly been lost.
now its not all bad, the idea of minions is nice…..but thats like the only thing i do like from 150 bucks worth of books, that one, simple, whimsical idea that is far too easily ported to ANY game system to be considered an integral part of 4th edition mechanics. Thats a very poor return on investment.
With the way 4th edition stands, you could develop any rules mechanical combat system and drop it in a sword and sorcery world with almost no attempt to quantify anything else BUT combat, and you would have whatever it is that 4th edition D&D is, as sold. 4th edition is more akin to steve jacksons skeletons game with fantasy window dressing than it is to what most “greybeards” know as D&D.
Maybe its the lack of the why and how behind concepts like powers and rituals and healing surges etc that were always before built right in to the conception of the character class or setting elements, I dunno.
Just my plug nickel, but I’d just as soon play an online game as 4e as it seems virtually the same thing except 4e has much crappier graphics and does not run nearly as fast.
December 12th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
I was first introduced to D&D through 3.5. I totally agree with this article in a way that, the whole point of D&D is to play a role (duh). Combat was only a fraction of what the game was really about. It seems as though 4e has stripped the whole aspect of role-playing and turned the much-loved game into a completely combat oriented game (correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think so).
January 1st, 2011 at 3:18 am
I think all the rantings against fourth edition are just a bunch of angry fans afraid of change. Fourth Edition fixed many problems from edition after edition of Dungeons&Dragons. Fourth Edition is the only D&D Edition where there isn’t a blatantly unbalanced class. As far as complaints of how will you convert X. Well how would you have done it before? You improvise. Thats what roleplaying is all about.
Now don’t get me wrong. There are ethical reasons I don’t buy ANYTHING from wizards of the coast. I just download fourth edition. Fourth Edition is bathed in the blood of forum members. During the early 2000s, even so much as speaking of a fourth edition got you banned. I lost a lot of good friends that way, all because they had to act like some covert government operation. “There is no fourth edition, it’s just trolls trying to start shit.” Then it was “Okay, there is a fourth edition… but any discussion of it could be a leak to what’s to come and it’ll ruin business.” Then it’s “Surprise! Fourth Edition! Go out there and spend your whole paycheck like a good consumer monkey!”
So they treat us like we’re idiots, and expendable cattle they can ban and ignore whenever they want. Yet expect anything else but to live out on the street in a box. Fuck wizards of the coast. But mechanically, the game is sound. And as long as it’s pirated, I see no moral opposition to it, and think it works. All it is, is the good elements of third edition that wizards of the coast never bothered to add upon. Imagine a 3.5 campaign centered around psionics, tome of battle, and warlocks. That’s fourth edition. Now that doesn’t sound so bad, does it?
March 9th, 2011 at 6:24 am
After getting 4th edition as a gift I gave away all of my 3.5 books. I keep reading that the new system is rules heavy and limits roleplay, but I have yet to be explained how. A system never has an impact on roleplay. With everything from tripping attacks to magic attacks use the same system and rolls how dose that complicate things? If anything it limits the “let me look that up real quick” which bogs down the action. And on the subject of action 4th is far more heroic in feel and play allowing every player a last ditch action to recover a quarter of their total HP. Though its designed for a battlemap you can play in a fast and loose style and get a lot of heroic actions and epic conflicts that were rather impossible in 3.5. Healers, your first healing spell is still good at level 30 thanks to healing surges. Fighters, you no longer get outstripped by lv 15. wizards, you NEVER run out of spells. How is any of this a bad thing?
March 21st, 2011 at 6:55 pm
Still trying to get rid of my 4e core books.
Really gave it a chance, played with good DMs, even at Gen Con 2010 with pro DM. Hate it. All the classes do the same: dmg+some move effect. Gamist system with counter-simulative mechanics. WoW character roles. Unending combats with everybody Marking everybody else for some minor annoying effect.
Sounds like 4e is faring badly (reports are that Pathfinder is now outselling 4e, which is pretty pathetic because most 3.x players aren’t even in need of Pathfinder materials, due to the huge amount of WOTC 3.x product).
If you love it, fill yer boots. This is JMHO, I just lament what might have been had they stayed true to D&D.
July 1st, 2011 at 10:31 pm
In my humble opinion, I’ve played fourth edition for over a year now, I’ve played d20 modern, white wolf, etc., etc. And let me say this about fourth edition- If we didn’t modify the system to our liking it would be garbage. It’s still my least favorite system, but the people make it worth it. The big problem with it, is that it’s really turned into a card game. There is literally NO sense in making a regular attack with your weapon, it turns into, “I’m a level one fighter, and I’m going to cast lightning from the tip of my battleaxe as I hit the goblin!” Everyone is a caster now. Everyone uses magic, has ranged attacks, and it has restored balance to the game. But balance is never fun. That’s why you want better gear, why you want to roll well, because you want to get an advantage. Also, everything is done in abilities. At the end of the day it comes down to “I have three different actions to do, or I can run.” The grid is done poorly, and there aren’t many tactics. 4th Edition is a powergamer’s dream, which has an appeal to many people I know. The problem is, it’s focused on gameplay, not rp, and very little is left to the dm’s discretion. There’s also no need for character roleplay or creativity, since it’s so heavy on combat with nothing else in store. Yes, you can level up, yes you can get new gear, but in the end it all comes down to “I use ability X on target Y” I only play it for the friends, and long back to the days when D&D was a pen and paper roleplaying game, not a tabletop board game.
September 15th, 2011 at 2:47 am
Ok … a month at Encounters. So, I speak from experience with the game.
Pacifistic clerics? Uh, you’re talking 3.5 buddy. You want to heal your friend, get ready to smash the enemies brains in, ask them to blow a Healing Surge(often in short supply) JUST so you can give them a Healing Surge with some extra Hit Points.
Real multi - classing options (Again, 3.5), the “Multi-class” Feat options is a pure tradeoff, nothing more complex than that. Big wow.
Class Selection (Mein gott, out the door they have so many classes I got LOST. Let me go back to 3.5)
Skill Selection (A Warrior who is semi-skilled in Knowledge:Religion, buddy, wrong system, go see 3.5)
I could go on, but I won’t.
Yes, I will say this, I’ve stated for years that a system cannot hamper role playing. But … when almost every single stat, skill and power is focused around combat in some form or another, it does a REAL good job of stifling that ability to role play.
What really seperates Wizard A with Z Build from Wizard B with Z Build?
3.5 gave OPTIONS, IDEAS, WAYS, TOOLS. They gave you methods where you could have two wizards with the same selection of spells end up being totally different.
4e is a WarGame
3.5 is a RolePlaying Game
Accept that fact and the hatred between the two begins to fade.